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06 May 2008

Comments

Tim

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Fundamentalism#Doctrine - 4.5 out of 5 at least.

2) James 1:27. I suspect I might not totally disagree with you; my slant is that revival is when you see the Kingdom with its values increasing in wider society, which it will do stealthily (insert ch+v here). What I see from a YT video clip is confined indoors. What I see from their website is bad design, "make a donation" (cynic alert!) and probably ammunition for others.

Is it really 12 years since Toronto was doing the rounds? Perhaps unsurprisingly, I totally failed to engage with that movement then, too.

Andrew T

A bit closer to home we have the example of the Cambuslang Work of 1742 which causes controversy to this day! Some said that it was a genuine revival sent by God but there were others that feared that it was false and the work of the devil.

Last night on Channel 4 was screened the "award winning" documentary "Jesus Camp" which followed youngsters in the US attending a camp organised by a Pentecostal minister. Okay, I'm wise enough to the media to know that they are always going for an angle and that most likely only the most controversial parts of what was said by the leaders was put out in the the film but what struck me was that the meetings seemed to consist of a lot of shouted slogans, whipping up of hysteria and resulting bouts of emotion from the crowd. There can be such a thing as false or even demonic joy. Speaking more generally, I have always been left with the impression that charasmatic worship is really not much more than a form of entertainment for those gathered there and an exercise in self-exaltation for those that lead them. I find it no coincidence that some of these "great leaders" are found, in reality, to be engaged in grossly sinful activities and subject to public exposure.

Any act of public worship that lacks teaching from scripture is pretty pointless. If you want to dance around, sing and have a good time you would be as well being at a pop concert.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" [2Tim.3:16-17] (AV).

Tim

Andrew T: I also saw about 15s of that `Jesus Camp' thing last night. Turned off quick since I couldn't be bothered being drawn into the controversy of checking biassed reporting versus real loonies.

MacGafraidh

We have to be careful we are not dealing with something that is of the "Emergent Church" David, (for more on this movement see the following blog http://macgafraidh.blogspot.com/2008/04/dangers-within-emergent-church.html


I hadn't heard of this guy until about a week ago and now he seems to be everywhere. It always worries me when preachers want you to believe them and don't wish to back it up with what is said in the word.

Tim

Those who would learn what the Emergent Church is really about would do better to read it straight from the horses' mouths: http://www.emergentvillage.com/about/

Having read a couple of McLaren's books including _A Generous Orthodoxy_ and Rob Bell's _Velvet Elvis_ for myself, I'm sure there's no connection with these "fresh fire" folks. The FF crowd are characterised by fundamentalist fervour; there is nothing new there beyond the domain-name. The Emergent movement is based on taking from the *best* of the *whole* gamut of Christendom, be that Evangelical or Catholic or Orthodox or whatever; indeed they would deserve `fresh' in their name if they wanted it, and that kind of freshness of thought is to be respected.

MacGafraidh

Tim, I am not saying they are connected mate. (Not without seeing some concrete evidence that it is so) I am fully aware of the Emergent Village website and was a fan of Rob Bell and his work with the NOOMA videos prior to finding out what he actually believes.

I would agree that a freshness of thought is to respected if they are teaching the truth.

Cathy Wilson

Oh - what is 'revival'? - not sure what it means.
It is maybe a Naman situation?
Folk could do simple, straightforward things in a regular frequent pattern to develop 'holy and good habits' to use an old fashioned phrase and so become 'reliable', 'tested' 'usable' by God no matter what they feel and no matter what else is going on.

Are we , as members of the 'church' ready for 'revival'? If revival means folk making a commitment to Christ in a deeper way or seeking to follow Him, it is a huge job for the 'church' to help with all the difficulties which folk will bring; to teach, lead folk into discipleship and offer practical help and wise advise - even offering a hand of friendship is hard in some churches. We have all become TOO BUSY. Sometimes I find it hard fitting in washing my dishes and cooking wholesome food.

The idea of 'revival' in terms described above scares and saddens me. God is not an entertainment.

I don't want my emotions whipped up, I don't want a flying evangelist to come and 'do the stuff' and then 'fly away again', never mind going to 'the place to see the stuff done'. I want a stable, steady, strong set of habits developed in my life by the grace and guidance of the Hoply Spirit which will enable God to dwell and sup with me and abide; I long for that. As that happens perhaps revival is possible in me and then I can be in a listening place and see/do the things that are at the heart of God's desires for other human beings made in His image and loved to breaking point by Him - in Him nudging and obeying His word.

love
cathy

LYNN

Guys, I have to post here to urge a word of caution. Please don't turn on me for saying so!! Please read this report as it says it far better than I ever could.
http://stevehickey.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/revival-in-florida-todd-bentley-and-seat-of-scoffers/
I have watched Todd Bentley for hours and hours now over the past few weeks and I cannot agree with some of the comments that have been made about the lack of the Word. You need to pitch in for a bit longer before making strong pronouncements over what is happening there.

You can also read about the social action Fresh Fire is involved in - they have set up a Ugandan orphanage for example and are heavily involved financially in anti-child trafficking.

As for the 1994 place mentioned - step out of the airport now and hail any cab driver (like I did) and they can probably tell you good stuff and lasting fruit that church does in the city and beyond - the Sunday I was there (a year ago) a cab pulled up with a very sick person going for an operation the next day - they came for prayer - which they lovingly and duly received - the service was halted to meet their request.

I'd love to see even a smidgeon of that in my city!!

brodie

Dave - thanks for being brave and putting your head above the wall on this one. It's right to question things and ask what's going on, and your comments seem measured and appropriate to me for what it’s worth.

MacGafraidh - If your understanding and experience of the "Emerging Church" is from the web and some of the books that are about then you can only ever have a rather limited and skewed view. For a start, there is no Emerging Church as such - it’s a movement of sorts (some call it a conversation), and as such is marked by a great diversity. Some of the emerging people I know are theologically very conservative and their commitment to prayer and "holiness" would put most worshipers at a "normal" church to shame.

John MacDonald

Guys - I have been following this a wee bit and usually do not comment or get drawn into these pointless arguments but I am the Pastor David mentions who received the impartation at lakeland from Denny Klein at Albany Vineyard (see it on www.annieslandelim.org.uk).

Todd Bentley has been ministering around the world for about 12 years now establishing orphanages in Africa and India as well as leading evangelistic crusades there.. All these accusations of being New Age etc - where do you think the New Age got its stuff from? They took the things God established and the church deserted and used them for dark purposes- Satan and Demons cannot create anything they can only steal and counterfeit the real thing!

Having been to lakeland I can say without any doubt that the presence of God there is incredible and in over 20 odd years as a leader I have learned to discern his presence... Why is worship without preaching pointless - where do we hear of sermons in heaven? I read a lot of worship there but no preaching...

In addition the miracles there are for real - I myself was healed of a leg injury without any laying on of hands. My experience there has drawn me closer to Jesus and more aware of his majesty. Because Jesus is the emphasis of what is going on there - Todd continually refers people to Jesus and others continually remind the people that this is not about a man but about the King Jesus...

As for impact upon the city well I spoke to a waitress in an all night diner - non believer who just thinks the people have been wonderful. She works through the night on her own and suddenly the nights are packed and she is overwhelmed BUT she says - no-one complained, no-one bitched they just cleared the tabnles for her and served each other their drinks; prayed for the girl and cleaned their own tables Do Christians do that in your home town restaurants?

I also had the opportunity to share with a couple of JWs and invite them to the meetings... Please, just because this does not fit into your doctrinal beliefs or prejudices do not speak against what may be a work of God AND by the way there are tons of stories of salvations - they are there...

We are supposed to be a kingdom family of love but too often we are a critical ravenous pack of wolves tearing lumps out of one another whether from jealousy, frustration or ignorance - I believe we grieve the Father's heart when we treat our brothers and sisters this way - disecting the workings of God to score points in our game of theological one-upmanship...

Jesus' ministry was also criticised by the religious establishment of the day, as was John Wesley, George Whitfield, Jonathon Edwards, Reese Howells, Charles, Finney, John Calvin etc, etc... Please, we need to realise that God is far bigger than our denominational or personal views and we need to allow him to expand our spirituality..
The supernatural is real - if it is not then God doesn't exist BECAUSE he is supernatural in his very nature and in his dealings with you and me.

He never does things the same way twice so why should this move of God look like any other - just as Toronto was different so is this - God doesn't play our games and often he will offend our minds in order to reveal the true state of our hearts when it comes to spiritual matters.

I look at the fruit and the fruit I see from my experience and the people I met there is good fruit whereas what I hear from critics is bitter and nasty tasting...
Culturally I don't go for every style of ministry but over the years I have learned to look beyond this and see what God is doing and he is doing plenty...

I would challenge those who are criticising so vociferously to examine their own practises and teachings and swear that they are without error or prejudice or cultural influence - No, I didn't think so...

Please hear me I don't want to get into a fight with anyone just to make you think that actually God may be moving in ways you don't like or understand BUT it doesn't make it any less God

MacGafraidh

Hey brodie
I would agree if my research on the matter was strictly based on what I had read online. The internet is not a reliable source on it's own as I could probably direct you to pages that say all sorts of junk.

My opinion however is based on lots of seeking out of sources from within this "movement" and outside sources looking in. Far be it from me to willingly stand in the way of Gods work.

We all have opinions and on this one I think we will have to respectfully disagree, that is ok by me. If you wish to discuss further then not an issue, I would gladly discuss and go through the pro's and con's but I feel we are getting away from what the original blog was for. (perhaps you would like to discuss on the comments of my blog, you are most welcome to)

I think we should steer this back towards the Lakeland revival as that is what the original post is for.

God Bless
Uilleam Alba Mac Gafriadh

John MacDonald

Ryan, when did God retire? When did he stop engaging with his sons and daughters? Has God ceased to be?
I personally know people who have raised dead people by the power of Christ - in fact one of them, Suprise Sithole from Africa is ministering in Glasgow this month (17th & 18th) at Glasgow Elim...

As for healings - I have been personally involved in over 50 healings either as I ministered to them or being present when others ministered to them... arthritis, fibromyalgia, asthma,legs growing,ulcers disappearing, pain removed and many people who have never had to use their walking sticks since prayer ministry... In fact I have two videos on our church website of testimonies to full healing - with one person's consultant's verification!

I spoke to people at lakeland who were physically healed: one woman whose tumour actually left her body and got caught in her trousers, one lad whose asthma instantly cleared, my own hamstring problem which I struggled with for months instantly healed (and still is to date. The countless stories still coming through from people healed as they watch the meetings on God TV, or the internet or there at the meetings.

I am sorry my friend, LITERAL physical healings certainly do happen for fact... In fact I am not sorry - I rejoice in the awesome power of God.

Don't get you started on glossolalia??
What, because you have no experience of something or because you don't believe in it therefore it must be false?
Since when did we become the standard of spirituality - surely Jesus is the standard and He promises that we will do the things He did because the Holy Spirit would be poured out...

What has happened to make the people of God stop believing the scriptures? Why have we drunk of the spirit of this age of scepticism, cynicism and unbelief?
The church is rife with it - that's why people don't go, why they go to the spiritists and witches - in their heart they know spirituality is more than words... BUT all church gives them is words: Paul called it a form of godliness without the power thereof! Whatb a sad indictment of God's representative on earth - having the form but not the power...

As I said previously - God is supernatural so we expect supernatural occurences when we walk with him.
Anything less is not The Way as known by the early disciples nor is it the life promised by scripture.

John MacDonald

Hi Ryan, I think you have misunderstood what I have written - I am not accusing anyone of atheism and neither do I subscribe to swooning emotionalism.
I do believe that emotion is involved in worshipping and relating to God - we are instructed to love him with all of our mind, heart, soul and strength.

I did not say God reveals himself "exactly" as he previously has - in fact if you read my previous post you will see I have said the opposite. But I do believe God continues to reveal himself in accord with scripture and that does include through men and women with prophetic gifting.

I fail to see how that equates to malignant self-exhaltation - humility is not only acknowledging lack but strengths and giftings also. That is not cancerous, that is healthy...

There is nothing perverse in acknowledging the lack of power in the church which has driven people to seek the false and counterfeit power of the occult - I and many others seek to return to the promises of Scripture and the instruction of Jesus (heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the leper and announce the Kingdom of God).

I must also assure you that there is nothing transient about my faith - my faith is based securely and soundly on the finished work of Christ on the cross and his resurrection from the dead.

As for healings - I have never charged a penny nor accepted a donation for any healing I have been involved in and would be happy to minister to you on the same basis... It would be a privilege.

When miracles do not happen it reminds me I still have a way to go in allowing Holy Spirit to conform me to the image of Christ (Rom.8:28-30) I do not give up - rather I press on more determined to see them on a more frequent basis than I do already.
I am sorry you struggle with the reality of healings taking place but the people I have ministered to know the reality of their freedom from pain, unemployment (caused by illness) and suffering. I can introduce you to some of them if you wish...

I am saddened by the tone of your response which reads to me as emotive, sarcastic and scoffing - such confrontational language does not promote love and is unbecoming of a follower of Christ.

I do not wish to take up this forum with our discussion, it is unfair to other users, and so you can email me if you wish to engage in dialogue further - info@annieslandelim.org.uk; or if you wish to dialogue we could meet for coffee.

With blessings
John

John MacDonald

Thanks Ryan - would love to dialogue with you.. But whatever happens I wish you well

Be blessed
John

m0ok

Tonight I watched Todd Bentley knee a colon cancer sufferer in the gut. Sickening.

m0ok

Well, Todd said 'The Lord' told him to do it, so he'd know I guess.

Looks like it's not uncommon for 'The Lord' to tell Mr Bentley to deliver a knee to the stomach (though this example has much less force than the one I saw on Wednesday evening)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9xdw6aT9c

It's about 4 minutes 10 seconds in.

Judging by the recipient's reaction, Todd must have a taser in his knee.

m0ok

Ah, someone finally posted video of the exacty incident I was originally talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUTCWLoD4-4&

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